It's worth the read, check it out.
I wanted to update this post with some quotes from the excerpt. I apologize for not posting it before. This happened just after the meeting concluded and it was known Torre would no longer be managing the Yankees:
Is Torre being arrogant here or is he justified to feel a little insulted?So that was it. The 12-year Torre era had come to a nonnegotiable end. Torre's run ended with a meeting that took little more than 10 minutes. As Torre got up from his seat in Steinbrenner's office, Hal Steinbrenner said to him, "The door's always open. You can always work for the YES Network."
Torre was too stunned to speak, caught between bemusement and anger. Did the Boss's son really just dangle the consolation of working for the Yankees-run regional television network after the Yankees refused to negotiate with the second-winningest manager in franchise history?
Prior to the meeting Torre and Brian Cashman had spoken about a two-year deal.
“Cash, I have an idea. What about a two-year contract? It doesn’t even really matter what the money is. Two years, and if I get fired in the first year, the second year is guaranteed. But if I get fired after the first year, I don’t get the full amount of the second year, just a buyout. The money doesn’t matter. I mean, as long as it’s not just something ridiculous. It’s not about the money. It’s the second year.”This idea was never spoken about during the meeting in Tampa. This conversation between the two took place immediately after the meeting:
"Cash," Torre asked, "they had no interest in that buyout proposal, the one I gave you over the phone?"About 30 seconds later, the book says, Cashman comes back out of the office and tells Torre that the team is not interested in doing that.Cashman looked at Torre oddly, as if this were something new. "Uh, I really didn't understand it," Cashman said. "Remind me, what was it again?"
"Two-year contract, whatever the number. If they fire me during the first year, they pay me both years. If they fire me after the first year, they pay me some reduced amount we can talk about."
"I'll see."
Cashman walked back into Steinbrenner's office.
Torre was incredulous.
"I'm thinking, Well, s---! He never told them!" Torre said.
It's safe to say that this is about the time Torre got pissed at, and lost trust in Cashman.
... at the moment when Torre was searching for some way to save his job and turned to Cashman in his moment of need, Cashman did not so much as pass on to his bosses a proposal from Torre -- a simple one, too, one that was not at all difficult to understand. Twelve years together, and it ends like this.I know what you're thinking; spare us the sob story about how trusting you are Joe. And I agree.Come to think of it, Torre thought, Cashman had said nothing during the entire meeting. Cashman was the general manager who had persuaded Steinbrenner after the 2005 season to put in writing that Cashman would have control over all baseball operations. The manager is a fairly important part of baseball operations. And when the future employment of the manager was being discussed, how was it that the empowered general manager had nothing at all to say?
"Cash was sitting right over my right shoulder," Torre said, "and never uttered a sound the whole meeting." Cashman, for his part, says simply, "It was Joe's meeting."
"I thought Cash was an ally, I really did," Torre says. "You know, we had some differences on coaches, and the usefulness of the coaches. I know he didn't think much of Guidry. And [former bench coach Don] Zimmer. You know, Zimmer didn't trust Cash, and I disagreed with Zimmer vehemently for the longest time. Then, you know, you start thinking about things ... I have a, I don't want to say it's a weakness, but I want to trust people. And I do trust people until I'm proved wrong. And it's not going to keep me from trusting somebody else tomorrow, because it's the only way I can do my job."
But regarding Torre's feelings about Cashman and how he handled the situation, I can understand why he feels the way he does. I Maybe it shouldn't be in a book, but I'm not outraged about it like some. Plus, it makes for some entertaining reading.
Question, was the insinuation that Cashman valued an "old lineup based on stats?" If so, I don't think that was a shot at sabermetrics as much as it was a shot at what stats the Yankees valued. Not a surprise to me that the Yankees were looking at the wrong things when constructing those '04 to '07 teams. It was all about batting average, homers, and RBI. I'll be the first to concede that sabermetrics alone doesn't work and needs to be supplemented with character, youth, and defense. But it's a good starting point if you know how to use it, and I don't think the Yankees did. I'm still not sure they fully grasp how to run an organization.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't take it as a shot at sabermetrics either. As you said sabermetrics, along with the things you mentioned are a recipe for a great baseball team. Just look at the recent Red Sox teams.
ReplyDeleteThe Yankees have been focusing on big name players, Giambi, A-Rod, Sheffield, and so on. I think the complaint is more with the egos that those big name free agents bring with them more than there high on-base percentages.
Damn martyr. No loyalty in baseball.
ReplyDeleteTorre says this now when in fact he was involved in recruiting and wanting these big name free agents back when the yankees signed him.
ReplyDeleteI think the Dodgers are the biggest losers in all of this. Not only did the manager limp the team into the playoffs with an 84 win team, all the while he was co-authoring a retaliation to the $5 million insult the Yankees offered last year.
ReplyDelete$18 million well spent Dodger fans, hope it's worth not keeping Manny.
Torre is being arrogant and maybe a little too sensitive. Sounded like Hal was just saying you will always be welcomed back.
ReplyDeleteI can't argue with that.
ReplyDeleteunderstandable that he was hurt, but really they did the right thing, it was time to let him go. There is no easy way to fire a legend.
ReplyDeleteI think he was more upset by the fact that Cashman led him to believe that he was on his side when he really wasn't.
ReplyDeleteehh idk about that because after he rejected it he kept saying how cashman was pulling for him so that doesnt really make sense. But regardless from this excerpt you can really see how much of a cut throat business baseball really is. As for cashman, i think basically he wanted to move on just like hal did an
ReplyDeleteThe entire last part of the excerpt is about how Torre felt betrayed by Cashman for forgetting to even mention the two-year deal they had spoken about, and for basically hanging him out to dry in the meeting.
ReplyDeletecashman is a weasel
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again im sure cashman didnt want to hang torre out to dry but, at the same time i think he and all the baseball people felt it was time to move on, that was best for the team. But it wasnt best for torre and they new it was gonna be tough to break ties with him gracefully. not really sure it could have been done better, fire him outright? might have been better idk , obviosuly they though it was more respectful to offer him a deal
ReplyDeleteJoe Torre would have been a broadcaster, likely for the rest of his life, had the Yankees not hired him in 1996. If not, and he was hired somewhere else, he would have likely been back to broadcasting not long after that. Other than the fact that he played for St. Louis, the Mets, and the Braves, I don't know who else was going to hire him.
ReplyDeleteJoe Torre should credit the Yankee organization for turning his career around, because before they hired him, he was a sub-500 manager with a fairly mundane track record and very few prospects.
Torre seems to be following the same kind of path that some of his players have taken - act like they made the Yankees, as though the Yankees were nothing without them.
Would it honestly have been such affrontery for Torre to have taken the incentive based 1 year deal? He knows how the Steinbrenner family works, it should have been no surprise. If they truly didn't want him back, they could have simply parted ways. His contract was up, they could have just said they were going in a different direction. They made an offer, and considering the amount of money they spent on the team over the past decade, and the amount of money Torre made as the highest paid manager in baseball, I'd say that they had every right to expect more out of the team, and every right to offer him a one year deal.
The bottom line is that ego was the reason Joe Torre left the Yankees, and ego is the reason he contributed to this book.
I hope I'm never too full of myself to reject those that made me who I am today. If a prestigeous organization with decades of great history ressurected my mundane career, and they want to only offer me a one year deal after years of disappointment, I'll gladly take it and say thank you for even making me an offer, especially if it's a reasonable offer. If he were anyone else, he would have been fired long before.
And the offer to Torre was quite reasonable, one that would have made him STILL the highest paid manager in baseball, even without meeting the incentives. The Yankees offered him $5M in base salary, with the next highest paid manager only making $3.5M.
Yes, I'm insulted to be paid almost 50% more than the next highest paid manager, while at the same time the team I've managed has not reached their goal for the past 7 straight years. While it's a lofty goal, I should know how it works by now.
Managing the Yankees is a luxury, not your earned right. And after the most epic collapse in postseason history and some ugly first round losses, I'd be prepared, as the leader and manager of the team, to eat some of the blame, and some of my ego, and accept a lesser deal. That's just me.
Nomaas.org has just released some snippets from Joe Torre's lost novel "The Pre-Yankee Years." They include:
ReplyDelete- His 894-1003 record before he went to the Yankees
- Blaming everyone else for winning only one division title in 15 seasons
- Feeling betrayed by GM Frank Cashen after leading the Mets to a 286-420 record
And last but not least, his inability to handle a pitching staff and his poor work ethic:
There were whispers about his problems handling pitchers, teaching fundamentals, arriving at the ballpark too late and leaving too early. (Source: The Atlanta Journal Constitution, Feb 2 1985, Page B2)
First off let me say that if your th GM of the Yankees and your not willing to turn your back on people. I don't think you deserve the honor. Secondly manageing the yankees is like working for the church you don't come back a year later and write about the pope being an as*h***
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me like the organization had already made up their mind and was not about to change it no matter what. It looks like Cashman was trying to prepair Torre for what was a take it or leave it exicution type scinerio and Torre didn't get the hint.
ReplyDeleteI echo the sentiment about Torre being just another person who thinks he made the Yankees.
ReplyDeleteAlso - what kind of crack cocaine is Torre on that he thinks this was some awesome deal the Yankees woudn't pass up? "If they fire me during the first year, they pay me both years. If they fire me after the first year, they pay me some reduced amount we can talk about."
So you if you continue to suck so badly you are fired in your first year you get paid for both years? No wonder Cashman was like "remind me the punch line to that joke again."
Managers are over rated. Most often by the managers themselves.
"First off let me say that if your th GM of the Yankees and your not willing to turn your back on people. I don't think you deserve the honor."
ReplyDeleteMike,
I agree that Yankees GMs have to be able to do those things, but there are ways not to be a scumbag about it.
To all,
The next time we have a Yankees manager win four rings and make the postseason 12 straight years, then we can go around bashing Torre as if he did nothing here.
When we look back in history when does the manager come into place when talking about who deserves credit for the win? Is Huggins, Stengal, McCarthy ever mentioned in the same breath as Ruth, Mantle, DiMaggio, Jackson, Berra, Rizzuto, Nettles?
ReplyDeleteAs long as the talent keeps coming in, we will see plenty of managers getting 4 world series rings. Heck, there have been 2 in Yankees history alone that have 7, and one who got one less than Joe. So let's not pretend this guy is one of a kind.
Actually managers like Huggins, Stengel, and McCarthy do get a ton of credit for what they've won as managers. It's why they're in the Hall of Fame and it's why they're in Monument Park.
ReplyDeleteAnd no he's not one of a kind, but he's in fine company. There are five managers in the history of baseball with four or more world series wins.
"As long as the talent keeps coming in, we will see plenty of managers getting 4 world series rings."
Well the next time that happens in the free agent era let me know, because as of now there's only been one guy to do it since the 50's. As I said, he's one of five people ever to do it.
And another thing, regarding the book, all I'm suggesting is that people wait until they read the book before coming to some conclusions. Why is that so hard?
ReplyDeleteHow do you explain his awful record before the Yankees and amount of championships to his record as manager of the Yankees and amount of championships? What happened? Did he find something out he was doing wrong in the past and correct it in 1996? Managers are simply in the right spot at the right time. In football and basketball you see when a successful coach takes over a reeling team, if he is a good coach, that team does better. That does not happen in baseball. The manager gets too much credit, and Joe will forever be remembered by this book, more than what he ever "did" as manager of the Yankees.
ReplyDeleteYou can't expect people to do that, when that is the natural reaction. Again, what did you do when you heard reports about "Vindicated" before reading the whole book?
ReplyDelete"Joe will forever be remembered by this book, more than what he ever "did" as manager of the Yankees."
ReplyDeleteFirst of all that's doubtful, second, how about actually reading the book first?
As for "Vindicated," that was a book written by Jose Canseco outing his former teammates and friends' steroid use, he also filled the book with lies about players. As I said to you the other day there is no comparison between the two books.
I thought I was going to stop commenting, but it is too much fun coming up with something new, and hearing a new excuse for how Joe Torre is not wrong in this whole thing, and to give him a chance.
ReplyDeleteI think those great Yankees years will be remembered by Mo collapsing on the mound, Jorge fist pumping, The Flip, The Dive, Leyritz' home run, Wade Boggs trotting around the stadium. I think the image of Joe crying and blowing kisses to the crowd, probably the image most people think of when his name and champion or success are put together, people will just laugh at that from now on.
ReplyDeleteHow am I making excuses? All I'm saying is that he was a very good Yankees manager and will be remembered as such. Whether you think managers are overrated or not isn't going to change that.
ReplyDeleteAs for the book, the only thing I'm saying is wait until you read it to pass judgment. I haven't read it so I don't know exactly what's in it. Someone that means I'm making excuses for Torre.
Seriously, how am I making excuses for people by reserving judgment on a book I haven't read yet?
ReplyDeletePoor Joe--he let his ego get in the way I guess. Perhaps we'd do the same thing; perhaps not.
ReplyDeleteI agree Cashman is a weasel (and a "dweeb"), but Joe makes it sound like a $5 million dollar offer is an insult. We're not that stupid, Joe, so don't try to play that game with us. The Yanks would have been fools to accept your "offer," by the way.
What a damn shame....
Mike
Mike,
ReplyDeleteI agree that the fallout of all this is a shame.
But it wasn't the money that Joe was offended by, it was the years. He wanted a two-year deal. That doesn't make him right in all this, but that's what he was upset about.
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ReplyDelete