Well that's that. Mussina was a great Yankee, it's just a shame he never won a World Series here. He finished his career with a record of 270-153 (.638 Winning %) and a 3.68 ERA.Yankees right-hander Mike Mussina is retiring.Mussina will make his decision official later this week, major-league sources say.
The Yankees, who are aggressively pursuing free-agent starting pitchers, were not expecting Mussina to return.
Mussina, who turns 40 on Dec. 8, is coming off the first 20-win season of his 18-year career. He is selling his home in Bedford, N.Y., according to one source, and planning to spend more time with his family in Montoursville, Pa.
Mussina held off his announcement until the completion of baseball's award cycle. He recently won his seventh Gold Glove, tied for sixth in the American League Cy Young award voting and even received one eighth-place vote for Most Valuable Player.
So is Mike Mussina a Hall of Famer? I think he is a borderline HOF'er, especially when you consider he pitched during the steroid era and in the AL East.
21 Comments:
we'll win next year now. its a shame, he was so good this year. i think he is a HOFer.
Sad to see him go but not surprised. Of course, he could be like Clemens - retire, then un-retire.
Mussina is smart, he won't come back. It's a shame that he's leaving. But it's also good to end your carrer with a srtong finish.
Too bad we never won with him, but that's the way it goes. I was so happy when we first signed him....
I don't think he's a Hall of Famer, but who knows?
Mike
good luck moose.
Man , it's sad to see him go. I'll miss those "MOOSE" chants.
As anonymous said,
"good luck moose"
The Hall of Fame is sacred. If there is any doubt about someone being a Hall of Famer, they clearly do not belong in the Hall of Fame.
I will miss Moose quite a bit though. He was a competitor, intense and a clubhouse leader. I hope he sticks around with the Yankees in some way.
He is over 100 games over .500 for his career. There are 16 other pitchers who are HOF eligible who have done that, and they are all already in the HOF.
I think he will get in, and I hope to be there in Cooperstown the day it happens.
He should definitely be in the HOF. 18 years of consistant performing in one of the best offensive divisions in baseball. Year after year of good numbers even in the era of mass run-scoring.
He'll probably be borderline, but to me, he should be in without question. If he doesn't get in, what other pitchers who are retiring soon DO get in? Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Pedro Martinez. Who else has been as good as those four plus Moose over the last 15 years? Yeah, short list.
Think about players that are in the Hall of Fame: Ruth, DiMaggio, Williams, Robinson, etc.
When you hear those names and someone asks "Are they a Hall of Famer?" you laugh at them, it's consensus. When someone says names like "Mike Mussina and Gary Carter" you sort of cringe and go "Ehh maybe" and have to argue for them. It's the Hall of Fame, it should be a sacred, definite spot.
He's a hall of famer. I was sad to see him leave Baltimore, was mad for a little while even but realized he gave Angelos a hometown discount once and even waited for him to present him a decent offer to stay. He didn't.
True Moose never won a WS but he had two opportunities to pitch in the WS with the Yanks. If he remained in Baltimore, he doesn't come close.
Joe, I respect your opinion but I have to disagree. You might cringe when saying Mussina and Hall of Fame in the same sentence, but not I. The guy is a Hall of Famer in my book. Accolades and great moments rightly receive considerable attention for the Hall, and Mussina lacks the compelling features of Cy Young awards, 300 wins and 3,000 K's. But consider this analogy:
Mussina: 270-153 (.638 winning %), 2,813 K's, six double-digit loss seasons out of 18.
Player B: 289-163 (.639 winning %), 2,765 K's, nine double-digit loss seasons out of 18.
Who is player B? Greg Maddux over his first 18 seasons. Note that Maddux played 11 of those first 18 season with Atlanta, a team always in the playoffs with Maddux during this time (with the obvious exception of 1994). Note also that Mussina pitched not only for the Orioles, who faltered badly as an organization, but also spent his entire 18-year career in the AL East and therefore in the much tougher hitting league, during the steroid era no less. Mussina compares rather well to Maddux, who won the Cy Young in four straight seasons, has 355 wins and 3,371 K's, and a World Series ring, but needed more than 18 years to get the win and strikeout benchmarks, just as Mussina would have. I'm not saying awards don't matter; they do. But the remarkable statistical parallels show that, over a comparable span, Mussina was right there with a guy considered the paragon of pitching greatness of his era.
Mussina is Hall of Fame worthy, no doubt or hesitation in my mind.
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Joe - you're talking about players that played the game in the FIFTIES for crying out loud. If not Moose, what other pitchers from the modern era DO get in there? The Hall of Fame is intended for players who dominate their era. Aside from the four other pitchers I mentioned, what pitcher since 1995 has been that consistant and that good for that long? Are you telling me there's only 3 or 4 pitchers in the last FIFTEEN YEARS that belong in the HoF? Then what the heck is the point? It's not the Hall of OLD Fame or Hall of pre-1950s Fame. I appreciate the legacy and historical value of those names you mentioned, but modern day players need to get in there. Manny Ramirez doesn't belong in the same sentence as Lou Gehrig when it comes to the kind of person he is or what he's meant to the game, but nonetheless Manny will be in the HOF.
Has Mussina ever been at any point in his career the most dominant pitcher at that time? And it's not only individual accomplishments but the success of the team around him. Mussina has been associated with the underachieving Yankees after he was signed to become a cornerstone of the dynasty Yankees. And Manny Ramirez absolutely belongs in the Hall of Fame, it doesn't matter that he's not as "nice" or "fan friendly" as those guys, he was associated with championship teams and not only associated but the reason these teams did win.
Joe - How is being the most "dominant pitcher at that time" the "rules" for who's in the HOF and who's not? Was Kirby Puckett ever the most dominant player of his time? Ozzie Smith? Cal Ripken Jr? Paul Molitor? How about Don Sutton?
Come on man, it's not all about dominating for one season or a few seasons. Mussina was EASILY one of the most consistant pitchers of his era, and I'm not talking about wins. He can't be blamed for what the Yankees failed to accomplish. Year in and year out he put up incredible ERAs for the AL East. Look at the names of players that have been inducted into the HOF over the last 10 years and tell me Moose doesn't belong on that list.
If you want to re-design what the HOF should be, or want to change the rules, that's one thing, but based on who's currently in the HOF, Moose did every bit as much as many of the players that have been inducted in the last 10-15 years (and even before that).
I'll throw a few more names at you, just for fun:
Jim Bunning, Nellie Fox, Phil Niekro, Gaylord Perry...
the truth is that many players are getting into the HOF based on sustained excellence as opposed to short-lived dominance. I don't make the rules, I didn't decide who's gotten in so far. But if all those names I've mentioned are in the HOF, Moose belongs in there too.
Sorry, I copied those names off a list of HOFers, and somehow I copied Nellie Fox on there - I was trying to list pitchers.
Mike Mussina Career Highlights and Awards:
-5x All-Star selection (1992, 1993, 1994, 1997, 1999) - None with the Yankees
-7x Gold Glove Award winner (1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2003, 2008)
Kirby Puckett Career Highlights and Awards:
# 10x All-Star selection (1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995)
# 2x World Series champion (1987, 1991)
# 6x Gold Glove Award winner (1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992)
# 6x Silver Slugger Award winner (1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1992, 1994)
# 1991 ALCS MVP
# 1996 Roberto Clemente Award
# 1993 MLB All-Star Game MVP
# 1993 Branch Rickey Award
Jim Bunning, 7x All Star
Phil Niekro
# 5x All-Star selection (1969, 1975, 1978, 1982, 1984)
# 5x Gold Glove Award winner (1978, 1979, 1980, 1982, 1983)
# 1980 Roberto Clemente Award
# 1979 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award
Gaylord Perry
# 5x All-Star selection (1966, 1970, 1972, 1974, 1979)
# 1972 AL Cy Young Award
# 1978 NL Cy Young Award
# Pitched no-hitter in 1968
All of those people have more credentials than Mussina, and admittedly some of them arguably should not get in, so what does that say for Moose?
How the hell do "all star selections" and/or "Gold Gloves" or obscure awards equate to "credentials". All star selections are terrible way to judge a pitcher, and Gold Gloves have little to do with pitching. Over the course of his career, Mussina's ERA+ is commensurate with what those pitchers were. Look at his ERA+ (perhaps the most un-biased way to look at a pitcher's ability, and is one of the few ways you can truly compare pitchers from different years, asn ERA+ is adjusted based on league averages).
(higher is better)
Moose: 123
Perry: 117
Niekro: 115
Bunning: 114
Again, it's not up to either you or me to re-design the HOF rules. To me, you MUST base it on past inductees. Those names were names that stood out to me from the list as borderline guys.
Once again, you avoid my question. What pitchers over the last 15 years deserve to be in the HOF? Other than Glavine, Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, and perhaps John Smoltz. Who else? Nobody? So only 5? If you're not letting Moose in, then I don't see any other names that deserve it over the last 15 years or so.
Glavine, Maddux, Smoltz, Randy Johnson, Pedro, Clemens all deserve to be in. You CAN NOT COMPARE things like ERA+ and numbers that fluctuate from era to era. If we did that, well then no one should get in now with ERA's over 3 becuse all the pitchers from the 20's and those times have ERA's under 2. If Mussina gets in so does Schilling (WAY more dominant of a pitcher), and there is no way besides the "bloody" sock Curt gets in. So what if only 5 get in? There's no quota that has to be filled.
And I guess if we're talking ERA+ let's compare him to his contemporaries, Mussina had two seasons with an ERA+ above 150. A high of 163. Maddux has nine seasons over 150 with a high of 271. Randy Johnson had 8 seasons with a high of 197. Pedro Martinez had 7 of them (five over 200) with a high of 291. Mussina doesn't even come close, not even in the same ballpark as them.
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