Thursday, March 12, 2009

Klapisch Continues the Pointless Joba-to-the-Pen Argument

I know what you're thinking; oh no, not this s*** again. I was thinking the same thing while reading this article. But let's be honest, we all knew this was coming after Joba had two bad outings, even if it was just the first two weeks of spring training.

From Bob Klapisch:

So you want to enter the Joba Chamberlain ballot box. You’re ready to cast your vote on whether he should start or work the eighth inning. Good luck – this is a choice between right and right.

For now, it appears the Joba-Must-Start army has prevailed, and his No. 4 spot in the rotation is safe. Chamberlain delivered three scoreless innings against Cincinnati Tuesday night, quieting the murmurs about his velocity and mechanics.

Sorry, I must interrupt for a moment. While I guess I'm a member of the "Joba-Must-Start army," he actually allowed a run in his three inning outing on Tuesday. C'mon Bob, get the facts straight.

But is Joba’s mini-crisis really over? Of the 29 pitches he threw, Reds’ hitters swung and missed just once – and made contact every time they sized up Chamberlain’s famed four-seam fastball.

Yes, Joba hit 96-mph once, but in doing so nearly threw the ball over Jose Molina’s head. Joba made it to 95 one other time, otherwise there were plenty of fastballs that slogged along at 91-mph.

Obviously, it’s still early in spring training. Chamberlain has plenty of time to build arm-strength. But he’s not the pitcher he was in 2008; even while blanking the Reds, something seemed amiss.

While it seems that Klapisch understands how early it is in the spring he actually keeps going.

“I didn’t see the same explosiveness out of his hand, and I’m factoring in that it’s March,” said one talent evaluator. Remember, this is the same reliever-turned-starter who was injured not once, but twice last year, including the final week of the season.

Clearly, Chamberlain isn’t the horse the Yankees projected while he was crushing the competition in the minor leagues. Joba might have the unbreakable mentality of a latter-day Goose Gossage, but he’s fragile. His violent delivery ends with a stiff front leg – a recipe for long-term trouble that’s already reared its head. It’s a mechanical flaw Chamberlain will spend the rest of his career trying to fix.

The Yankees would be wise to ask themselves: at what cost will Joba reach his 150-inning limit this year? Given his history of arm trouble, who’s to say Chamberlain can again withstand seven innings’ work every fifth day? Who can assure the Bombers that his air-it-out, closer’s mentality didn’t wear him down by September?

Does Klapisch even know that Joba and his "closer's mentality" has always been a starter? He started in high school, he started in American Legion ball, he started in college, and he started in the minors. He was a starter until being converted into a reliever during the end of the 2007 season.

GM Brian Cashman and Joe Girardi should consider the possibility that Chamberlain’s 80 innings in the pen might be more valuable than 150 innings in the rotation. His outings will be shorter, more explosive, and he’ll only pitch when it’s critical.

Point is, the Yankees have no other alternative for those eighth innings. Chamberlain – not Brian Bruney, not Damaso Marte or Phil Coke – is the best bridge to Mariano Rivera. Meanwhile, Phil Hughes is having a terrific spring, ready to step into the rotation. Once again throwing strikes with his curveball, he’s yet to surrender a run this spring.

Actually, point is, this point is tired and pointless. Joba is a starter, the Yankees want him to be a starter, and he wants to be a starter. Last season he went 3-1 with a 2.76 ERA in 12 starts last year. He struck out 74 and walked 25 in 65.1 innings pitched last year. You can cry and whine about potential injury concerns all you want, but Joba proved last year that he can be a very successful starter in this league, and the Yankees would be stupid not to try to make the most of that.

Also, you would think that Klapisch would understand how insignificant spring training stats are. Just because Hughes had had five good innings this spring doesn't mean he's "ready to step into the rotation." Chien-Ming Wang had an 8.43 ERA last year in spring training and LaTroy Hawkins didn't give up a run in seven innings. And here's the stats for the two Cy Young award winners last year: Tim Lincecum had a 9.00 ERA and Cliff Lee had an 8.31 ERA. I could go on, but I think I've made my point; spring stats don't matter.

Let me be clear, I'm fine with whatever the Yankees want to do. I think they should stick with their plan and have Joba start, that's where I believe he will be most valuable to this team in the long run. But if for some reason they did decide to move him back to the pen and start Hughes I'd be fine with that too. Not because I think it's the right move, because I don't, but because I think the Yanks will be fine either way. But taking three bad spring innings and turning that into an argument against Joba being a starter is absolutely ridiculous. And as far as the injury concerns, yes they're real, but they'll be just as real in any spot Joba is put in, whether it's a starter or reliever.

21 Comments:

Anonymous said...

God this Joba to the pen thing doesn't end. Joba has 4 very good pitches it would be a waste to keep him in the pen. Does anyone remember what he did against Beckett in Fenway. Yankees project him to be an ace starter 3 years down the road.

All great starters can be good in the bullpen. You dont hear anybody saying put Rich Harden or Josh Beckett in the bullpen those two pitches have injury issues. David Price was great out the bullpen last year in the playoffs should the ray keep him in the pan.

Enough of Joba "closer mentality". Joba mentality reminds me of Roger Clemens.

As far as Mariano replacement I'm sure the yankees have discussed what they are going to do. Maybe it will be Melancon or Brackman down the line maybe the yankees will sign a closer in free agency.

With Rivera, Bruney, Marte, Veras, Coke and Joe Girardi is great at managing the bullpen unlike Torre. I really dont have a concern about the pen.

Anonymous said...

This is insane. I can't believe how many stupid sports writers and analysts there are. I mean, it's not stupid to think Joba would be dominant in the pen - we've seen him be dominant and he likely would make a fantastic closer. But it's pure LUNACY to not take a guy with his talent and see if he can become a full-time, big-time, Cy-young-type, front-of-the-rotation starter. Why doesn't every team just take their best starters and put them in the pen, and then put losers in the starting rotation. It would be a 5 or 6 inning game every night, right? Yeah, you'd have lost the game by the 5th or 6th every night.

If and ONLY if it proves out that Joba just can't withstand the rigor of a full season as a starter, then you think about putting him in the pen.

There's a reason that the best starters are paid 3 to 4 times as much as the best closers.

What makes me laugh the most is the argument that it would become a 7 inning game with Joba in the pen. So what? What good does a setup man for the 8th inning do if you're alread down 10-2 because your starter is a piece of crap? An ace that can dominate a lineup, giving your team a chance to score runs, and providing your entire team with that confidence can put you into the 7th inning with a 4 or 5 run lead. I'll take the 4 run lead with a "good" bullpen vs. a 1 run lead (or no lead at all) and a dominant pen. Even with a dominant pen, Joba can't pitch EVERY night for multiple innings if the starter only goes 5 or 6.

This Joba-to-the-pen crap makes me sick. I sincerely apologise to anyone who does think he should be in the pen right this minute, but you have to HAVE TO see if he can handle being a starter. Guys that can dominate a lineup and go deep into games are very hard to come by and they are what can win you games and championships.

Anonymous said...

Greg im not going to even justify this crappy debate with a response anymore, people are just way too single minded. All they see is the flash and excitment of joba in the eighth inning and the rest are just too naive and scared that the yankees will need a mariano replacement. Obviously all these people arent very serious yankee fans because if they were they would know about guys like mark melancon , and thats just one.
And the article talks about the yankees having no option for the 8th other than joba, is this guy really serious.
Its pathetic at this point how little these writers and commentators actually pay attention to the team. Brian Bruney is a stud and im sure you could tell everyone about how lights out he has been when he is healthy. and the rest of the pen is solid at its worst. o and not to mention the stockpile of young arms that they have, any of whom can be used as a hardthrowing setupman or closer, sanchez, brackman, whelan, clagget, etc. etc. Really can any of you writers actually research the team MY GOD its just sad at this point.

Anonymous said...

He should be a strater for now.

Anonymous said...

he should start unless he proves he can't...

Anonymous said...

I can't wait for this day.....
Mark Melancon has an ERA under 1 and BA against of .135 down the stretch and all the Franscesa loving zombies put down their kool-aid and come out of the word work! They will call in with grand tales of the Great Melancon. They will wax poetic about his upbringing from DNA to that afternoon, each with a different pronunciations of his last name. Meanwhile these "experts" couldn't pick the man out of a lineup today.
I'm looking forward to that day!

Anonymous said...

I wonder why no one is talking about how David Price should be in the Rays pen?
I mean after all don't the Rays have 4 quality starters much like the Yankees? (sarcasm)
It is interesting that so many people have a fetish for Joba being in the pen. One of the worst things....actually the only worst thing about having the greatest closer/relief pitcher on your team is you get spoiled. The fan base and media have gotten spoiled by having a great closer over the last decade.
Now it seems like ultra panic if the Yankees don't have a replacement for Rivera. Hence this fascination from the media to have this guy be in the pen. With little thought put into the fact that the organization has many arms including Melancon that can do the job one day.
Back to my David Price point. He did a good job out of the pen last post season but not one peep about him staying there.
But they don't have a Rivera. So it's less whining or no whining at all from the media to replace a great closer.
That's why I said that's the worst thing about having a great player in this case Rivera. When it comes close to that time for that player to hang it up media & fans are going to expect the replacement to be great. Or have a replacement waiting if not sheer panic and desperation sets in.
The same will happen when it's time for Jeter to hang it up. 'Oh my goodness, where are the Yankees going to get another good looking clutch SS from?'

Anonymous said...

I hope yanks have a deep bullpen so the starters can turn the game over after 5 or 6, save the starters' arms for later in the season.

NY Sports Jerk said...

Do you think we can wait until Joba actually manages to reach 120 IP in a season without getting hurt before we start calling him an ace?

Everyone points to his start at Fenway, which was tremendous, but the fact remains he made 12 starts then missed a month with arm trouble.

And let's be completely honest, as long as Joba is averaging over 17 pitches per inning, he's NEVER going to be an ace because he'll always be done after 6 innings.

Sure, he's got the "potential" to be a good starter, but it's not ridiculous to suggest that his best role may be in relief.

Greg Cohen said...

NYJS,

No, it's not ridiculous to suggest his best role may be in relief, but to use three bad spring innings as a reason for that is ridiculous.

NY Sports Jerk said...

Greg,

Yeah it is. As is the continued "outrage" over something printed in the NY Post or Daily News or whatever paper.

Have you all not figured it out yet? They have pages to fill and they're going to fill them somehow.

My only point with Joba is this: there are as many "200 innings is better than 80" people as there are "Joba belongs in the bullpen" people.

It's an awfully big leap at this point to assume Joba will EVER reach 200 innings in a season. I'm not optimistic that he will be able to scale back his "stuff" to the point where he can work innings with few enough pitches to be a reliable front of the rotation guy long term.

Hopefully he proves me wrong.



Bloggers should be thrilled to death that Bob Klapisch and his ilk keep running columns, because they give you so much raw material to work with.

Greg Cohen said...

I'm not "outraged" at anything. I think Klapisch is wrong, that's all.

Joba will not throw 200 innings this year, but he will never reach that mark if he stays in the pen. They must see if he can be a successful starter for a full season. If they don't they are potentially wasting what could be their ace for the next ten years.

If he proves he cannot remain healthy as a starter he can be moved back into a relief role the same way a guy like Kerry Wood was.

Anonymous said...

I want him as a starter but Theres 4 reasons why I would put him the bullpen

1) He's struggling as a starter and doesnt make it past the 5th inning.. ex: he's like 2-5 with a 5.00-5.50 ERA and averages 20+ pitches per inning.( possible but unlikely that happens)

2) The bullpen is blowing games left and right in the 8th inning.

3) Phil Hughes is flat out dominating in AAA, shuthouts, 2 hitters, 13 K games.. and he comes up to be the 5th starter.

4) Mo gets hurt, and the best option would be Joba to close.

other than that he should be a starter... maybe come playoff time if they want Andy to start game 4 and have Joba in the pen.. im all for that.

Greg Cohen said...

I would be fine with that too Dan. If any of those four things happened I could understand moving him into the pen.

Anonymous said...

no u cant throw him in the bullpen if he is struggling as a starter, the kid is 23 hello? , he is going to struggle at points this year. You guys all have your theories, plans etc. etc. Bottom line , the yanks have committed to him as a started , they did so when they drafted him as a started in the supplemental round. He wants to start, they want him to start, case closed. Only way he is ever a reliever is if he completely breaks down after trowing 150 innings.
Ill even put it this way, if he struggles alot this season they yanks will not return him to the pen they will actually send him down to the minors and call up hughes. They have committed to him starting and they are not going to go back on that at any point during the regular season, as he needs to build up the inngings regardless.

Greg Cohen said...

You're probably right anon. If I had to bet on it, I'd bet on him starting for the entire season, or at least until he reaches his innings cap.

However, there are some reasons why I could potentially see them moving him into the pen. If Mo gets hurt, if the middle relievers can't get the ball to Mo and Joba is struggling as a starter at the same time, or if Joba comes down with another arm issue.

NY Sports Jerk said...

Greg,

I really wish you hadn't used Kerry Wood as an example since he missed about a season and a half with major arm problems.

Greg Cohen said...

Yeah, I realized that after the fact NYSJ. My only point was he was a power pitcher who was a great starter, who couldn't hold up physically and was successfully moved into the pen.

Anonymous said...

Its a team game
its about winning
its simp0le to me
joba should be in the pen
we dont need cy young
we need a set up man
and replacement for Mo
we also want to start building teams for the playoffs
meaning
we want Joba to pitch in every game
just oikje Mo
ideally
a 4 game sweep
Joba is injury prone and its only a matter of time before he gets hurt starting
we dont have a need for him to start
ti be great but in terms of wining
i thikn playing the percentages and taking eveything into acount
winning a champtionship
the odds increase if Joba is playting or whatever pitching in more games
rather than more innings

Anonymous said...

I also wanted to add this is like my favorite site these days Im a daily visitor but I dont think Joba proved he was a starter I think he could be a great starter we all agrgee but that doesnt mean he should be starting it just doesnt
especially when he is so injury prone
maybe one day we will neded him to be a starter but this team needs to gel start picking eachother up and performing in the clutch how many playoffs are we gonna get knocked out of personally im tired of it we are buillt for runs and long terms season but in a short series with the addition of CC and AJ I think we should go into the season and the playoffs with Joba and Mo as an everyday we have the lead its close game threat think about how many games the combo would win the yanks will score runs its about pitching and defense alwayus was
look it be great to have another roger clemens and to have a cy yong award winning pitcher but we got starters
if he gets hurt and misses alot of time people are gonna be saying i told u so
i hte to get cliche but the risk reward thing
if he starts there is alot to lose his injury potential goes way up right?
if he s not starting and u get quality from your rotation him in the pen is a huge boost
i dunno i cant balance it where he should be starting although i liked alot of the arguments I read on here for him as a starter i just remember the 1st title Mo John im not trying to recreate that but when we lost to the indians
we would have won that series if the midges never came through
that was a glimpse of the Joba Mo connection
it was them they prety miuch kept us in that series
Joba was like a great chess peice we need that piece him starting its not as important as pulling out the big guns in crutch time

Greg Cohen said...

TopOfNewYork,

You're entitled to your opinion whether you like this site or not. With that said, I'm very happy to hear that you like the site.