This is the first guest post we've had here at Sliding Into Home, and hopefully there will be more in the near future.
By John BoniniYou guys know my opinion, I think Joba should start and I'm not going to budge on that. But there's nothing wrong with having opposing opinions on the same blog. It probably makes it more interesting for the readers anyway.
Death, taxes, and the Joba debate. Really, are there any other certainties in lives of Yankee fans? Certainly not in the thoughts and minds of Yankee fans.
With Joba Chamberlain getting off to a pretty ordinary start in the rotation, coupled with the fact that there have really only been two reliable arms out of the pen thus far, the Joba-to-the-pen debate rages on.
However, instead of focusing my energies on why Joba should be in the bullpen, surely something you all have read in every degree, theory and perhaps language conceivable, I’d rather spend my time on why Phil Hughes should be residing just southeast of Scranton, Pa, throwing his innings in the Yankee starting rotation.
The reason behind this is simple; Phil Hughes has shown that he can more than an ordinary starting pitcher in the big leagues. Who can forget his near no-hitter in Texas in May of 2007, only Hughes’ second career big league start.
Or his performance in game 3 of the 2007 ALDS, where the rookie pitched 3 2/3 scoreless innings after bailing out Roger Clemens to earn the win and extend the season to one more day.
Joba Chamberlain, too, has shown greatness. However, the young hurlers greatest moments, his highlights if you will, have come out of the pen. He’s been dominating, fearless, quick, economical, and just downright nasty out of the pen.
In the rotation however, most of this swagger is missing in action. He works at a more leisurely pace, throws too many pitches, walks too many bad hitters, and lacks that gusto that once had fans on their feet at the anticipation of Joba entering a game.
There seems to be a certain focus Joba takes to the mound with him in the late innings of close games that lies dormant when he starts. He works much more quickly out of the pen, throws more strikes, and seemingly strikes everyone out.
There should be no shame in this for Joba. Goose Gossage and Mariano Rivera, two Yankee closers who will be joined in the Hall of Fame one day, both started their respective careers as starters only later to find their true calling in the ninth inning—and in Goose’s case, sometimes even the 7th and 8th.
The Yankee pitching this season looks to be the best they’ve had this side 2004, but in my mind, there’s no denying that the Yankees are a better team with Job in the 8th, and Hughes in the rotation.
Hughes’ latest start came Friday night, where the righty tossed 5.2 scoreless innings, walking none while striking out six. After two starts this season, Hughes is 2-0, pitching to a 2.31 ERA.
Hughes detractors will point to his dreadful 2008 appearance in the majors, and for good reason. We all know the numbers. He went 0-4 with a 6.62 ERA before going down with a rib injury.
But after what he showed in 2007, I saw this as more of the exception than the rule, especially under the circumstances of his rib injury.
With the way Brian Bruney has been pitching, along with the curious case of Mariano Rivera, adding Joba to the mix would strengthen this team far more than it would weaken it, especially with Hughes waiting in the wings.
It seems like the right move to make, but one the Yankees have been reluctant to do, almost as if they’re looking out for the best interest of Joba Chamberlain rather than that of the organization itself.
In the back of their collective minds somewhere, Yankee brass must be pondering who is replacing Mo in two years. These types of guys with the fortitude to pitch in the late innings don’t grow on trees. With the right approach, the transition from Mo may not be as gloomy as it once appeared. The Yankees must come to terms with this fact, it’s time. Gotta go’da Joba.
(John Bonini writes for The Voice of Yankees Universe.)
Also, with Chien-Ming Wang pitching as poorly as he has, maybe Phil Hughes can find his way into the rotation without taking Joba out of the rotation. Right now I think Chien-Ming Wang needs a start or two in the minors so he can regain his confidence.
Greg's Note: Chien-Ming Wang cannot be sent to the minors. According to Joe Girardi via Kevin Devaney, "a team cannot send a player to the minors unless they have options or the player agrees and has at least five years of service. Wang has no options and hasn’t been in the majors long enough." So, uh, so much for that.
26 Comments:
I did'nt read the whole thing. But I look at it like this. Joba can help this team one day for 7 innings and either get a win or a loss. Or, Joba can pitch 5 innings for the week, and influence 4 or 5 ball games. I think with his track record and the fact Hughes and Kennedy will eventually crack the rotation its just the best move to have him in the 8th.
-Jakuh
Personally, I think Joba should be in the bullpen. This is because some times he is in-effective, and because I'm not sure if he can make 30 starts without suffering an injury of some sort.
If we have the lead in a game, a combination of Bruney (7th), Joba (8th), and Mo (9th) we are almost garunteed to win. We can't rely on Ramirez and Veras to secure the 7th. (although Veras was pretty good last year)
I felt that putting him in the rotation was a chance worth taking for a young pitcher with command of multiple pitches he can throw for speed. I think it may be time to revisit the idea. His destiny may be as a legendary closer.
With the way Wang is pitching right now, there's no way theyre moving Joba to the pen...unfortunately
really you think Wang should go to the minors, your a genius........ drop him down to AA, oh and after today's result, Yankee exec's, players, fans, & the owners should be on suicide watch...
I find it frustrating, like many, that he is starting,but...if anyone really searches their heart of hearts and thinks that if this bullpen doesn't hold up (or he struggles) that he isn't going back...Your nuts.
People, you KNOW this team. You KNOW these stupid head games/smoke screens that the front office throws out there. He will be back once Bruney starts falling apart which is probably not long after the All Star break. Mark it down.
Mario, he's completely lost on the mound. He needs to pitch a game that doesn't matter so he can work on his problems. You can't do that on the major league level.
Oh while I'm in such a positive mood,and I don't know if it's been done yet here yet, but I am officially starting the Girardi Watch. (Showalter winks)
At the very least they need to skip Wang's next start in Boston.
Yep, very true Anon.
With guys like Ramirez-8.44era,
Veras-8.53era and Marte-21.00era,
coming out of the pen. Five guys in the line-up batting under .200,
something's gotta give. Time to try something new, Joba, Hughes, Kennedy, Igawa or Melaconon. Not real impressed with Gardner either.
Joba needs a chance to prove himself as a starter. He hasn't gotten enough of a chance yet. Phil Hughes might make it back as a quality starter some day, but he already has had more of a chance than Joba has gotten. Bonini needs to have the same patience with Joba that he seems to have with Phil.
If by midseason Joba isn't getting it done as a starter, move him back to the pen, until then let's all give the guy a chance.
Joba should be in the bullpen, a guy who can dominate the 7th and 8th inning of a game is much more important for this team. His stuff translates much better coming out of the bullpen.
Should be a starter.
The only reason this debate even exists is that he started his major league career in the pen. He was a starter in the minors & college.
If he started his career in the rotation, no one would ever mention this.
Are you going to tell me the Rays should move Price to the pen, since they have a more obvious need for a closer and that's where he was last year (in the pen)???
Let's not forget that Santana, for at least the 1st few years, split time between the pen and rotation.
I think Joba has a closer mentality. He has the arrogant, fist pumping swagger than lets him prevail. I think he will be an above average starter but a legndary closer. Right now, though, they need starters with Wang struggling.
Hey GREG, I was trying to be a bit of a smart%^& with that comment, like duh, he needs to be sent down for at least 2 starts somewhere in the minors, and with how hot WB/S is on, I'd rather send him to AA...
How about Joba gets more than TWO starts before we stick in the pen because he's an "average" starter?
The "closer" mentality works as a starter, too. Pedro Martinez had it... he would stare down batters after Ks, etc. AJ Burnett pumps his fists... Those guys would both probably make good closers with that kind of "mentality."
Joba has the endurance to be a starter. He can go 100 pitches and still have "stuff". His last start wasn't the best because he didn't locate well.
There should be no argument here. An ace starter is much more valuable than a closer. If Joba turns out to be unable to handle starting for whatever reason, he goes to the pen. Mariano Rivera did the same thing. As did Jon Papelbon, and probably most other great closers.
If/when the time comes that Joba shows an inability to maintain himself as an elite starting pitcher, then the discussion can resume. But it's going to take more than two starts to find out.
The concern right now should be what the hell Wang is doing.
The bullpen, aside from Veras, has yet to cost us a ballgame where we had the lead. Until we start blowing games, I'm not concerned with the pen. You can't judge guys when they come into lobsided games (such as Marte or Edwar today). When it's been "crunch time" all of our relievers have done decent job aside from Veras. What would having Joba in the bullpen have done for the Yankees so far? I can't think of one situation where we would have won a game instead of lost it if we had Joba available.
Death, taxes and a CAT-holic hell is more like it. Tick, tock, tick, tock.....
Ramirez, Veras and Marte all suck. And, they are ALL Cashman players. Cashman couldn't build a good team if his life depended on it. His BP sucks. His starting OF sucks. His rotation has NEVER been good until this year AFTER spending a ton of money. Even his "good" rotation is up for debate. And, his hitting teams are a laughable joke. I can't even remember a team that was a good hitting team with RISP or situational hitting. And, his playoffs teams are an utter disaster. In fact, I can't even remember winning a playoff series in forever under Cashman.
ROFLMAO, you can't judge this BP? Marte came in when it was tied vs. Indians, what the hell are you talking about? Veras has walked 2 batters when it was tied. Again, what are you talking about. You guys live in la la land. You make up irrational, straw man arguments to make yourself feel better. Its hilarious. Thank GOD for sanity. You guys surely dont have it.
Joba to the pen and Hughes to the rotation. End of discussion.
Great to see the guest post generating a lot of conversations. Once again thanks to John Bonini for the post.
Also, I found a little problem in my send him down for a start or two idea. It can't happen. At least according to Kevin Devaney who writes for the Journal News and subbed for Pete Abe on his blog today. He says that Girardi said to him that It’s reason to consider a demotion. That "a team cannot send a player to the minors unless they have options or the player agrees and has at least five years of service. Wang has no options and hasn’t been in the majors long enough."
So that's that. I guess then there only option is to skip a start or two.
If they really had to, Wang could go to the pen as the long man or be used for mop up duty for a while.
Yes, yes, and yes! This is a no brainer about where Joba should be. Remember, there was a time when Mariano Rivera was in the rotation. What that 1995? He started a game against the White Sox? It is absolutely correct that Joba does not have the swagger in the rotation as he does out of the pen. I also pass over Hughes. Not sure how good this guy is going to be. I see him as a 6th starter in a 5 man rotation. The Yanks have this reversed. Put Joba in the bullpen. Put Coke as the 5th starter -- and please do it soon!
wwnylibrarian,
You can't really compare Joba to Mo.
Mariano Rivera never had the number of very good pitches that Joba has. Joba throws a great fastball, slider and curve, and his changeup isn't too bad either. Joba is built more to be a starter, where Mo really could ONLY be a reliever.
John, I thought that a well-written, well-reasoned, argument. Nice job!
John, I thought that a well-written, well-reasoned, argument. Nice job!
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