"That's why the presidential debates are better," Girardi said. "They end."(hat-tip to Marc Carig)
Would the "Joba to the Bullpen" questions finally go away if Joba were to win 20 games?
"I don't think so," he said.
Saturday, May 30, 2009
Quote of the Day
Before tonight's game, Joe Girardi was asked for the thousandth time if the Yankees were considering moving Joba to the pen. After saying no, he followed with this gem about the Joba Chamberlain debate:
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21 Comments:
It's the sad truth. The other day I was watching MLB Tonight, and Mitch Williams said that both Joba, and David Price are better off in the bullpen. I wanted to call them up and argue, lol.
Or like today, Mitch Williams said Papelbonw is having the best season for a closer when Heath Bell, Hoffman, K-Rod, and Broxton are having world's better seasons.
Then about 30 minutes later, he says that Halladay is having the best season as a starter this year. Again, Greinke? Johan?
That guy is ridiuclous.
Sorry, had to vent a bit.
No problem, it gets frustrating at times.
I am personally one of those who think Joba should be in the pen. For most of us who believe that i think our biggest arguement for him going to the pen is that bruney is hurt and joba has not pitched well as a starter. If he was pitching well and bruney wasn't hurt there would be no arguement. The fact is he is not going deep into the game, he has a whip of 1.61 and his pitch speeds are down because is trying to be to fine with his control. Now to be far, he was pitching well last year as a starter before injury. This year though the yankees got in his head that he has to pace himself and that is why I think we are see him through 88-93mph on the fastball. The point here is there is a glaring weakness on this team that no one but him can fill. Now some of you may say what about Mark Melancon, can't he fill that void? So far it doesn't look like he can do so. Personally, I think he has better long term future as a set-up man then a closer. This isn't a knock against Melancon but I don't think he has that adrenaline rush you need to be a closer. Also, more times than not having a closer prospect doesn't work out. The simple reason for that is when you look back, since the day that Eckersley become the first of the one inning closer, the best closer have guys who were starters but didn't have that mindset to pace themselves. All they wanted to do was strike everyone out. Finally, there is one major misconception out there about Joba. Everyone keeps saying that he wants to start. He has never officially came out and said that. All he has every said was he wants one defined role and doesn't want to keep going back and forth between roles. I feel that eventually the Yankees will realize that he should be the closer of the future and will go back to the pen.
The problem with the argument is that both sides are probably right and have good points.
Since it is impossible to tell if Joba would be great in either role in the long term, to me, these are the most valid points for both sides...
Joba as a starter:
A top line starter, which the Yanks feel Joba can be, is always more important than an 8th inning guy. If you don't think so, check out the pay scale. Long term, the Yanks are going to need a starter to fill the role of Pettitte when he is gone and Joba would be that guy.
Joba as a reliever:
With the pen in shambles, Joba has shown an ability in the 7th and 8th to shut a team down and hand the ball to Mo, thus making it basically a 6 inning game just as it was in the Rivera / Wettland days. And also, Mo ain't going to be around forever. The Yanks have been spoiled with him. Should all fear the day when he is no longer there. Joba may be a worthy successor.
But nobody will ever be Mo.
I always thought he should be in the Pen. I believe this because as a starter I think Hughes is better than him and Wang is better than him. That makes Joba the odd man out. The only good start that he gave us that I can think of was last year against Boston. Hughes started a lot less games and has a handful more very good starts. Joba also throws too many pitches. In the future I think he will be better. He's a young guy and will become a fine starter. Right now he should be in the pen.
Robert, how can you say that Hughes has been a better starter than Joba?
Joba as a MLB starter: 21 starts and he's 5-2, with a 3.25 ERA and 9.8 strike outs per nine.
Hughes as a MLB stater: 21 starts and he's 8-9, with a 5.15 ERA. 7 strike outs per nine.
This is question is for everyone: David Price throws too many pitches too, should he be a reliever?
Hughes really bombed last year no question which is why his stats show it. If he can be more consistent (which has been a major problem for him) he will bring a lot of quality starts to the team. Joba was lights out as a relief pitcher. I remembered how pumped the crowd and everyone got when he would come in. He got the job done all the time. As a starter I don't get that same feeling at any point and a guy like him in the bullpen can bring a lot. Maybe he just needs more experience then he could be like that again as a starter. Time will tell.
It's kind of hard to explain how I feel about it. I miss that energy he gave when he came out as a relief pitcher.
I totally understand what you're saying about his energy, but I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, "Maybe he just needs more experience then he could be like that again as a starter."
Also, if he ends up proving that he can be a successful starter in a year or two he can always move back into the pen.
Nobody will ever win 20 games if they can't pitch more than 6 innings.
With all the hype Joba has gotten, you'd think he dominated as a starter in the minors or in college.
Jonathan Papelbon was a better starter in his minor league career. Go look it up.
Joba in the minors: In 18 games, 15 starts he went 9-2, 2.45 ERA, 1.01 WHIP, 13.8 K per 9, 2.8 BB per 9, 6.3 hits per 9, 0.4 HR per 9.
Papelbon in the minors: In 58 games, 48 starts, he went 19-13, with a 3.05 ERA, 1.08 WHIP, 9.7 K per 9, 2.5 BB per 9, 7.1 hits per 9, and 0.6 HR per 9.
If you compare their stats at high-A and AA ball, they're much different.
Papelbon also managed to pitch 129 innings in a season at that level, something Joba has never done.
You won't be happy until Joba tears his rotator cuff.
"You won't be happy until Joba tears his rotator cuff."
Yea, that's really what I'm hoping for.
Papelbon High-A: 12-7, 2.64 ERA, 1.08 WHIP, 10.6 K/9, 3 BB/9, 0.4 HR/9, 6.7 H/9.
Double-A: 5-2, 2.48 ERA, 0.94 WHIP, 8.6 K/9, 2.4 BB/9, 0.9/per 9, 6.1 H/9.
Joba High-A: 4-0, 2.03 ERA, 0.90 WHIP, 11.5 K/9, 2.5 BB/9, 0.0 HR/9, 5.6 H/9.
Double-A: 4-2, 3.35 ERA, 1.17 WHIP, 14.7 K/9, 3.3 BB/9, 0.9 HR/9, 7.1 H/9.
I'll give you the innings part, yes Papelbon was able to throw more innings. But Joba was better in High A ball, and Papelbon was slighty better in most catagories in Double-A. Either way the stats are not much different.
Point being, Papelbon and Chamberlain BOTH showed about the same skill level as starters in the minors.
The Red Sox recognized that Papelbon's stuff could translate to short relief, and moved him into that role.
The Yankees found out the same thing about Joba, and rather than groom him to replace Mo as the closer, are hellbent on trying to make him a 200 inning guy despite the fact that he's NEVER COME CLOSE to doing that.
Never 120 innings. Not once. Arm trouble in college. Arm trouble last year.
Your dreams of Joba the Ace are dying with every passing day.
Why do you keep changing your argument? First it was "Jonathan Papelbon was a better starter in his minor league career." Then it was "If you compare their stats at high-A and AA ball, they're much different." now it's "Papelbon and Chamberlain BOTH showed about the same skill level as starters in the minors," so they should both be in the pen.
Here's the main difference between Papelbon and Joba. Joba has four pitches, and will also will throw in a two-seamer at times. Three of those pitches are plus pitches, with the changeup slowly catching up to the other three.
The fact of the matter is that a lot of Yankees fans don't have the stomach to deal with the growing pains.
Papelbon's stats in AA ball WERE better than Joba's, dramatically so.
Joba's fastball isn't a "plus" pitch at 93 MPH, either, and the reason it takes him a million pitches to get through 6 innings is because hitters aren't swinging at his slider because he never throws it for a strike.
Point being, it's not a crime for a team to recognize a player's biggest strength and change their ultimate plan for him. Based on recent history, you'd have to be an idiot to suggest the Yankees don't make more mistakes in evaluating their farm system than the Red Sox.
So while you and the rest of the Joba-the-ace folks are puffing your chests out that Cashman shot down the bullpen idea again, when you look at Cashman's record, I'd hesitate before citing him as any sort of authority on anything other than how to worm your way into a job you're not qualified for.
First of all, who is "puffing their chests out"? Seriously, this isn't that serious. I just think he should start. I'm not going to be mad if they decide to move him back to the pen, especially if it helps the Yankees win.
And yes, Papelbon was better in AA, but Joba was better in high-A and your original argument was that he was better in both A+ and AA.
What I said was that Papelbon was a better starter in his minor league career.
When you consider the fact that Papelbon WASN'T a starter in college and had a terrible year in the NYPenn League when adjusting to that role, it's even more impressive.
I'll take Papelbon's 38 starts at A+ and AA and put them against Joba's 14 at those levels any day.
You're still enjoying the OVERALL point of that comparison, and it's that the Red Sox accepted the fact that Papelbon was more valuable as a reliever than as a starter.
Based on stats, the same can be said about Joba.
Jerk, are you serious, you can't keep switching your point and expect people to take you seriously. I don't even know why Greg is bothering responding to your nonsense.
What Papelbon was or wasn't in college has nothing to do with this. Based on stats Joba was better in the minors.
"I'll take Papelbon's 38 starts at A+ and AA and put them against Joba's 14 at those levels any day."
Based on what?
"You're still enjoying the OVERALL point of that comparison, and it's that the Red Sox accepted the fact that Papelbon was more valuable as a reliever than as a starter."
Because he has nowhere near the arsenal of pitches Joba does.
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