“Tell me, how does a pitcher get to the next level unless he’s tested under fire?” Seaver asked. “Where are you going to find the next Bob Gibson or Nolan Ryan or Steve Carlton unless a young pitcher is pushed? You won’t.”
“Everything is run by numbers now,” Seaver said.“[The Yankees] probably have a lot of money invested in Chamberlain, it’s a financial thing and they want to protect him. But he won’t reach his baseball limit this way.”
One thing these old timers have to realize is that pitchers and ballplayers in general don't grow up like they did. They don't prepare themselves to throw the same way guys in the past did. If they did, the number of pitchers on the DL probably would be so ridiculously high. I think these guys need to stop looking at every young pitcher as if it was a young version of them. Joba Chamberlain isn't prepared to do what a 23-year-old Tom Seaver was prepared to do when he threw 277.2 innings for the Mets in 1968. It's just not the same game.The Yankees inadvertently are teaching Joba to fear innings, which will only make him soft in the future.
“What really galls me is seeing a pitcher taken out of game that he’s dominating the opposing team,” Seaver said. “These people today don’t understand what it means to walk off the mound after holding the other team down for nine innings, the feeling of triumph for your own team — and the effect it has on the players in the other dugout.
“They’re thinking, ‘we didn’t even get a sniff off Seaver or Gibson’ or whoever. That’s totally demoralizing, and it’s one element you don’t see anymore.”
Seaver recalled that Gil Hodges understood perfectly the “foxhole mentality” that’s vanished in the era of setup men and one-out specialists.
“Gil would come out to the mound in a tough spot and say, ‘you’re throwing great and I’m not coming back out here to get you, You do whatever it takes,’Ÿ” Seaver said. “You know what that meant? It meant that eight other guys were on that field counting on you. They were in the same foxhole with you.
“The day I won my 300th game [pitching for the White Sox against the Yankees on Aug. 4, 1985] Dave Duncan came out to the mound,” Seaver said. “[Tony] La Russa had been ejected in the fifth or sixth, so it’s [pitching coach] Duncan who says to me, ‘if you think I’m taking you out in front of 60,000 people at Yankee Stadium, you’re out of your mind.’”
Seaver said, “I ended up throwing 148 pitches that day.”
Seaver uses the Texas Rangers as an example of a team doing it "old school" thanks to Nolan Ryan. And yes they certainly have a much more old school philosophy, but we have no idea what will happen to that staff next year or the year after that. I think we should all wait and see what happens before coming to any conclusions on Ryan's experiment.
Do you agree with Seaver?
12 Comments:
I agree with you.
I agree that things are deffinatly different and that young pitchers need to be gradually brought up to a full work load in this day and age to prevent injury. The only thing is that the majic numbers that are used seem to be arbitrary. A better system needs to be devised to figure out how much rest is needed, what is overexerting and such. As of right now Joba has an innings limit which means that a 3 pitch inning is the same as a 35 pitch inning and I think that is a little crazy. If he is sailing through and being economical then the exact number of innings might not matter.
I agree, pitch counts should probably be the focus much more so than innings. Like you said each inning can be different.
Its hard for me to say I agree with the Joba rules, but its also hard to say I don't disagree.
I think with an arm like Joba's, yes you want to take it easy and don't want to over work him to much in the beginning. Like its been said, to the Yankees, Joba's an investment and one they need to protect.
But I also feel that this being his 3rd year in the league, you just need to let him go, and trust him to let the team know how his body his handling the work load and if he needs an extra day or 2 between starts.
What I am also intrested in is if the Yankees have rules for Hughes next season or if hes going to be handled differently.
I always think it's odd that a pitcher comes out of the game at 100 pitches even though he was dominating the opposing team. It's almost as if the manager is giving the other team a shot at winning the game. I know I was happy to see Santana or Pedro leave after 100 pitches, and then have a shot at the game through their bullpens. It certainly is a different game.
I think Nolan Ryan is going to have a lot of teams second guess this whole innings limit theory...What if this whole study took a sample of pitchers that may have also been using PEDs or other supplements that helped lead to injury? There are so many factors that can affect how these inning limit studies and results came about. I agree with what Ryan is doing and I think he's going to make a lot of people look stupid
-G
couple of things.
you can't compare era's like that. the game is different. top to bottom the line-ups are better. there are more good hitters in the line-ups now than there were then. the 8th and 9th hitters are as likely to take you deep as the 5th and 6th hitter back then and it was even easier pre 1973 before the DH.
i believe that pitchers need to throw harder now against more batters than they did in the old days. there are less places to coast on the modern teams.
That's not true JoeV. If he can throw 93-95 consistently with that slider, curve and change, he'll be very good. Especially when he learns how to be more consistent.
Anon, the PED side of this is very interesting. That may be the cause of a lot of these injures. These guys may have been too strong for their own good and their body couldn't take it.
Hi Greg,
I just don't see him as the dominating pitcher he's made out to be. Maybe in the future like you said, but right now, he's your average pitcher.
If PEDs could be linked to career ending injuries maybe the use would tail off. Ha! No way.
I dont agree people forget Joba first year of minor league ball he was in the majors. He was rushed to the major in order for them to make the playoffs in 2007. Joel Sherman had a really good column about it.
The yanks rushed him and stunted his growth as a starting pitcher when they put him in the bullpen in 2007 and half of 2008.
Joba has 9 wins and a under 4 era and plays in the al east. I dont think that is an average pitcher. He has the same amount of wins a Jon Lester.
He is a 23 year old kid with very little experience you have to let him learn his craft. Same goes with Hughes next year if he is starting he will have some struggles too.
Joba hit 96-97 in his at bat yesterday to Gutierrez and he hit an rbi single. It is a myth that people think he needs to throw 97-100 mph to be sucussful. Pitchers like Matt Cain, Jake Peavy dont throw 96-97 consistenly. Joba needs to work on his mechanics and his command. Once he gets better in that he will be a very good starter he has 4 plus pitches but his control is the problem.
my mistake Joba has 8 wins.
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